OE Webex 10Jun08

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06/10/2008    09:24:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Wow, people are so eager to begin the meeting, they're arriving early! 
06/10/2008    09:25:36 AM    from midori:	In my case, it's paranoia -- if I waited the 8-10 minutes, that would be long enough for me to forget to join at all ;P 
06/10/2008    09:25:54 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that's what happened to me a couple of weeks ago.
06/10/2008    09:26:08 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, you were in the Zone. 
06/10/2008    09:26:30 AM    from Jen Deegan:	today I am not in the zone :-)
06/10/2008    09:26:39 AM    from Karen:	I have the same issue as Midori ;) 
06/10/2008    09:26:47 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So, before the great unwashed masses show up, did you have any Jen-specific or midori-specific or Karen-specific concerns to discuss? 
06/10/2008    09:27:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	One small thing I wanted to bring up is about newlines in defs 
06/10/2008    09:27:21 AM    from midori:	I don't; I'm just back from another break (this time a long weekend to visit the in-laws in Yorkshire). 
06/10/2008    09:27:31 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The easiest way to implement this is to turn it on in the text checker (it's already in there, just turned off) 
06/10/2008    09:27:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	which means it would not be possible for the user to turn off the newline check independent of the other text checks (I think) 
06/10/2008    09:28:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	(I need to do a bit more testing) 
06/10/2008    09:28:12 AM    from Nomi Harris:	In any case, it won't be a fatal error, just a warning. 
06/10/2008    09:28:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	Cool! I'm just looking.
06/10/2008    09:28:22 AM    from midori:	I don't know how the rest of the checks work ,,, 
06/10/2008    09:28:29 AM    from Karen:	no issues from me, I've had a series of vacations, both voluntary and forced, and sick leaves, so I'm not really up to speed on the latest version right now 
06/10/2008    09:28:42 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I plan to do another release on Thurs. 
06/10/2008    09:28:48 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I have no issues
06/10/2008    09:29:00 AM    from midori:	... but if it's just a warning, then we wouldn't be unduly imposing our will on other ontology developers, so no problem 
06/10/2008    09:29:08 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok, cool. 
06/10/2008    09:29:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Separating it out as a separate check would be more of a hassle. 
06/10/2008    09:29:29 AM    from Jen Deegan:	when you turn on the thing to check for newlines, which check box is it you check?
06/10/2008    09:29:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's not at the user level 
06/10/2008    09:29:46 AM    from Jen Deegan:	oh I see.
06/10/2008    09:29:50 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I remember you said.
06/10/2008    09:29:56 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I thought maybe that had changed
06/10/2008    09:29:58 AM    from Jen Deegan:	got you now
06/10/2008    09:30:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's in DefinitionCheck.java 
06/10/2008    09:30:07 AM    from Amina:	Hi everyone 
06/10/2008    09:30:12 AM    from midori:	hi 
06/10/2008    09:30:14 AM    from Jen Deegan:	Hi Amina
06/10/2008    09:30:19 AM    from Karen:	Hi Amina 
06/10/2008    09:30:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	setAllowNewlines(false); 
06/10/2008    09:30:28 AM    from Jen Deegan:	cool
06/10/2008    09:30:54 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I just fixed the oh-so-pressing bug where the red zigzag lines for redundant links were too ziggy.  Now they are appropriately ziggy. 
06/10/2008    09:31:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	:-)
06/10/2008    09:31:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	(It only took me a few minutes.) 
06/10/2008    09:31:14 AM    from midori:	and we will all sleep better tonight  ;)
06/10/2008    09:31:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hey, Chris was happy. 
06/10/2008    09:31:43 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The excessively ziggy zigzags did make the graphs rather messy-looking. 
06/10/2008    09:31:49 AM    from Jen Deegan:	people have strange problems.
06/10/2008    09:32:09 AM    from Nomi Harris:	You're one to talk!  :-) 
06/10/2008    09:32:14 AM    from Jen Deegan:	true
06/10/2008    09:32:24 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's nice that you are able to fix us
06/10/2008    09:32:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The difficult bug that I fixed this week was one I inadvertently introduced in b39: 
06/10/2008    09:32:46 AM    from Nomi Harris:	"After editing text (adding term, def, etc.), and hitting commit, the term is now saved, but when I then move off it to add another, I get the "do you want to discard edits" yes/no box pop up."  
06/10/2008    09:33:10 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I eventually figured out that this happened when I integrated the Term Image Display panel and left some stuff in it that should have been removed 
06/10/2008    09:33:21 AM    from Nomi Harris:	but I still don't really understand why it caused that seemingly unrelated side effect. 
06/10/2008    09:33:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Amina has been working on the reasoner + filtered save bug 
06/10/2008    09:33:55 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think she's almost got it fixed. 
06/10/2008    09:34:28 AM    from Amina:	yeah I understand whats going on with the reasoner now.. 
06/10/2008    09:34:30 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Are there any other not-too-hairy bugs that you'd like to see fixed soon? 
06/10/2008    09:34:45 AM    from midori:	I'd have to review my bug list ... 
06/10/2008    09:34:46 AM    from Nomi Harris:	(Obviously there are a lot of issues with the Graph Editor, slowness, etc. which are important but will take a while) 
06/10/2008    09:35:17 AM    from midori:	maybe now that I'm not going anywhere for a few weeks I'll get back to thinking about OE2 !
06/10/2008    09:35:22 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok, if you want to let me know later, I can take a look at them.  I'm talking about things that are not strictly speaking high-priority but are annoying and could be fixed easily, such as the zigzag thing. 
06/10/2008    09:35:57 AM    from midori:	Be  warned that I won't be able to gauge how easy a fix would be ...
06/10/2008    09:36:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Right, that's often hard to gauge. 
06/10/2008    09:36:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	But you can ask and I can look into it. 
06/10/2008    09:36:33 AM    from Jen Deegan:	the one about being able to make two global filters would be good to fix
06/10/2008    09:36:34 AM    from midori:	Fair enough. 
06/10/2008    09:36:47 AM    from Jen Deegan:	also the general filter interface
06/10/2008    09:37:09 AM    from Nomi Harris:	One I was looking into yesterday is the Graph Editor not always updating when it should. 
06/10/2008    09:37:16 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That makes a lot of things look broken. 
06/10/2008    09:37:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	For example, if you turn the reasoner on/off, the Graph Editor needs to redraw and it doesn't. 
06/10/2008    09:38:36 AM    from Jen Deegan:	Is the global filter an easy one?
06/10/2008    09:38:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I'll look into the filter thing, Jen.  Not sure it will be simple, though. 
06/10/2008    09:38:42 AM    from Jen Deegan:	thanks.
06/10/2008    09:39:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	did you see the ontology tree editor global filter one?
06/10/2008    09:39:34 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that was causing trouble for my editing so I went back to 1.101
06/10/2008    09:39:49 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I wondered if it might need demo'd as it was quite complex.
06/10/2008    09:40:01 AM    from Nomi Harris:	This one? [ 1986440 ] global/local selection OTE b39 
06/10/2008    09:40:08 AM    from Nomi Harris:	http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1986440&group_id=36855&atid=418257 
06/10/2008    09:40:11 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I think so.
06/10/2008    09:40:21 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Maybe you could do a demo at the end of the meeting. 
06/10/2008    09:41:18 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I'll do that. That's quite an important one. Not sure about easy.
06/10/2008    09:41:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok. 
06/10/2008    09:41:29 AM    from Jen Deegan:	thanks :-)
06/10/2008    09:41:33 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Any other bugs/issues/requests that people want to raise? 
06/10/2008    09:41:40 AM    from midori:	When I read it, I couldn't remember whether I've seen the same behavior ... 
06/10/2008    09:42:16 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	Did you see the one I wrote earlier? 
06/10/2008    09:42:31 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	One of the NIAID people I'm working with on the Cell Ontology mangaged to generate a "consider" tag for a non-obsolete term that pointed to the very same term.  This was using B38, and I haven't been able to reproduce this event with B39 yet.  She saved t
06/10/2008    09:42:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Where did you write this one, Alex? 
06/10/2008    09:43:01 AM    from midori:	in this chat ... 
06/10/2008    09:43:04 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	She saved the ontology but OE would not load it. 
06/10/2008    09:43:22 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	I probably sent it to All attendees 
06/10/2008    09:43:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I guess so, I didn't see it. 
06/10/2008    09:43:50 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	WebEx confusion on my part 
06/10/2008    09:44:01 AM    from Nomi Harris:	WebEx makes it easy to get confused that way.  It's annoying. 
06/10/2008    09:44:18 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	I haven't posted a bug report since I can't reproduce the bug myself with B39. 
06/10/2008    09:44:24 AM    from midori:	OE ought to be smart enough not to let us point a term to itself via is_a, consider, or replaced_by. 
06/10/2008    09:44:37 AM    from midori:	(so if it isn't, that's a bug) 
06/10/2008    09:44:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	We should test that behavior, midori. 
06/10/2008    09:44:56 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	I just wondered if anyone had experienced something similar. 
06/10/2008    09:45:07 AM    from Nomi Harris:	No, but I haven't done much testing of that kind of thing. 
06/10/2008    09:45:10 AM    from midori:	I don't think I have, but I haven't tried. 
06/10/2008    09:45:22 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Can you or Jen give it a quick try this week and report back? 
06/10/2008    09:45:32 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I just tried and it is working for me.
06/10/2008    09:45:36 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Oh, good. 
06/10/2008    09:46:05 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	I have no idea how she generated the error -- it was in a obo file she sent me. 
06/10/2008    09:46:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	the thing that is weird for me is the constantly appearing menu when it thinks I am dragging
06/10/2008    09:46:07 AM    from Jen Deegan:	but I know that is very hard to fix.
06/10/2008    09:46:29 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yeah, that isn't exactly a bug so much as it being oversensitive about dragging. 
06/10/2008    09:46:41 AM    from Jen Deegan:	the thing is I am definately not dragging.
06/10/2008    09:46:43 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	It does get confusing. 
06/10/2008    09:46:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's possible that there's something you can adjust on your computer to control how it interprets mouse dragging and clicking. 
06/10/2008    09:46:46 AM    from Jen Deegan:	not even slightly.
06/10/2008    09:47:05 AM    from Jen Deegan:	but it's fine on every other application including oboedit 1.101
06/10/2008    09:47:05 AM    from midori:	It's disconcerting, especially since OE1 isn't so super-sensitive. 
06/10/2008    09:47:07 AM    from Nomi Harris:	For example, my husband sets his mouse so that when you move it a tiny bit, the cursor *flies* across the screen. 
06/10/2008    09:47:09 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that's why i find it odd
06/10/2008    09:47:17 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hmm, that does seem odd. 
06/10/2008    09:47:26 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's definatley not a computer setting.
06/10/2008    09:47:38 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's obo-edit being really over imaginative.
06/10/2008    09:47:40 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I don't get much of the unwanted drag menu--I can make it happen if I deliberately fail to release the mouse quickly when I move to another term 
06/10/2008    09:47:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	but it rarely happens to me when I'm not trying. 
06/10/2008    09:47:51 AM    from Jen Deegan:	maybe I could demo this too?
06/10/2008    09:48:00 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That may be hard over WebEx since there is a lag and this is a very time-dependent kind of thing. 
06/10/2008    09:48:28 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I did put in one fix that eliminates one source of menu confusion--did that not help much? 
06/10/2008    09:48:40 AM    from Jen Deegan:	not really, for some reason.
06/10/2008    09:48:55 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So this happens to you, too, midori, on OE2 but not 1? 
06/10/2008    09:48:58 AM    from midori:	I haven't done much with OE2 s ince that fix, tho it sounds like it'll help
06/10/2008    09:49:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it seems to be every other term selection that I get the menu.
06/10/2008    09:49:06 AM    from midori:	Yes, it's new with OE2. 
06/10/2008    09:49:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think part of the issue is that OE2 is doing more thinking when you click, so it's slower to respond. 
06/10/2008    09:49:39 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I think so
06/10/2008    09:49:55 AM    from midori:	Not sure which beta, but it definitely goes back a long way -- I put in at least one bug report about essentially the same thing while John was still around. 
06/10/2008    09:49:57 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that's how it feels anyway
06/10/2008    09:50:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I will look into it more but I'm not optimistic about finding a quick fix. 
06/10/2008    09:50:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes it's been all the time as far as I know, since oboedit2
06/10/2008    09:50:26 AM    from Jen Deegan:	thanks for looking.
06/10/2008    09:50:28 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The problem is to differentiate between real dragging and unintended "dragging" 
06/10/2008    09:50:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	and there's no clear phenotype to differentiate between the two. 
06/10/2008    09:50:47 AM    from Jen Deegan:	can I tell you a way to trigger it?
06/10/2008    09:50:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok 
06/10/2008    09:50:58 AM    from Jen Deegan:	if you do what Alex suggested.
06/10/2008    09:51:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	What did alex suggest? 
06/10/2008    09:51:07 AM    from Jen Deegan:	so drag a term and drop it on itself
06/10/2008    09:51:19 AM    from Jen Deegan:	then after you drop the term click on another term
06/10/2008    09:51:25 AM    from Jen Deegan:	you should get a rogue menu.
06/10/2008    09:51:50 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So the fix I did should prevent it from interpreting a drag-to-self as a real drag to another object. 
06/10/2008    09:52:13 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I just tried what you described, Jen, and I didn't get the rogue menu. 
06/10/2008    09:52:16 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I don't get a menu when I drop the term so I think that worked
06/10/2008    09:52:21 AM    from Jen Deegan:	oh well.
06/10/2008    09:52:32 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I can get it when I do a small drag, though, so I know it's a real problem. 
06/10/2008    09:52:34 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I will post my computer to you :-)
06/10/2008    09:52:51 AM    from Jen Deegan:	do you have an xp machine yet?
06/10/2008    09:52:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Real soon now... 
06/10/2008    09:53:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	great :-)
06/10/2008    09:53:07 AM    from Amina:	I think its coming in today 
06/10/2008    09:53:13 AM    from midori:	Not sure it matters for the rogue menus, tho -- I get 'em a lot on the Mac. 
06/10/2008    09:53:16 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I really hoped my no-self-drop fix would help.  For me, it does.  I have to do much more deliberate dragging to get the rogue popup menu. 
06/10/2008    09:53:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	How about you, Amina? 
06/10/2008    09:53:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Maybe we can try it later on your Linux box. 
06/10/2008    09:53:48 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	Was no-self drop a recent fix? 
06/10/2008    09:53:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes. 
06/10/2008    09:54:07 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	Maybe that's why I can't reproduce the bug. 
06/10/2008    09:54:14 AM    from Amina:	I haven't seen it yet..maybe just didnt notice 
06/10/2008    09:54:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	b39 
06/10/2008    09:54:29 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Here's the note: 
06/10/2008    09:54:31 AM    from Nomi Harris:	- Eliminated some of the the unwanted degenerate popup menus (the ones with just two items) that you sometimes got if you left-clicked several terms in quick succession by not offering "Add consider term" or "Add replacement term" menu items if you drag f
06/10/2008    09:54:42 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	She was using B38. 
06/10/2008    09:54:47 AM    from Nomi Harris:	...from a term to itself. However, you may still get the drag popup menu (with six items) when you clicked on two terms but didn't think you were dragging.  Swing is kind of sensitive to sloppy clicking and tends to consider it a drag if you haven't fully
06/10/2008    09:54:55 AM    from Jen Deegan:	has anybody elese noticed the computer labouring when they just try to add a relationship?
06/10/2008    09:55:16 AM    from Jen Deegan:	When I add a relationship the fan starts on my machine and it thinks for ages.
06/10/2008    09:55:31 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	So the bug is probably fixed.  I encouraged my collaborator to upgrade to B39 today. 
06/10/2008    09:55:33 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Alex, are you talking about the "consider" bug or the rogue menus? 
06/10/2008    09:55:36 AM    from midori:	I've put in a bug report about CPU spikes just from searching & clicking, let alone editing. 
06/10/2008    09:55:36 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Or are they related? 
06/10/2008    09:55:43 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	The consider bug. 
06/10/2008    09:55:58 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	But it may have come from a rogue menu. 
06/10/2008    09:55:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I didn't deliberately fix that in b39 because I didn't know about it 
06/10/2008    09:56:11 AM    from Nomi Harris:	but if it came from dragging and dropping a term onto itself, it's probably fixed. 
06/10/2008    09:56:18 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	great. 
06/10/2008    09:56:53 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	When is B40 coming? 
06/10/2008    09:57:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Thurs 
06/10/2008    09:57:21 AM    from Jen Deegan:	now that you mention it my rogue menus seem to correspond to the timing of cpu spikes.
06/10/2008    09:57:26 AM    from Alexander Diehl:	okay. 
06/10/2008    09:58:09 AM    from Karen:	how are you viewing cpu spikes? 
06/10/2008    09:58:15 AM    from midori:	I'll watch for that too ... the spikes I reported recently were much more severe than I've seen for sveral betas now, so I didn't think there was much correlation, but it won't hurt to check. 
06/10/2008    09:58:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	with the windows task manager
06/10/2008    09:58:36 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's a little graph that works along adding data points as I work.
06/10/2008    09:58:36 AM    from midori:	Activity Monitor on my Macs 
06/10/2008    09:58:56 AM    from Jen Deegan:	you get mine by right clicking in the bar at the bottom of the screen
06/10/2008    09:59:20 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Right, mac has a similar thing 
06/10/2008    09:59:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Maybe I should keep an eye on that when trying to figure out where it's getting slow 
06/10/2008    09:59:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	but I think there's a slight delay in seeing the activity monitor spike. 
06/10/2008    09:59:47 AM    from midori:	I have mine set up so the dock icon shows real-time CPU usage. 
06/10/2008    09:59:57 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Anyway, it doesn't tell me what's going on inside OE that's causing the CPU spike. 
06/10/2008    09:59:58 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it did pretty well just now.
06/10/2008    10:00:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	true :-)
06/10/2008    10:00:12 AM    from Jen Deegan:	the fan noise gives about the same feedback for me.
06/10/2008    10:00:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think there are inefficiencies in the whole control structure of OE that will not be easy to fix. 
06/10/2008    10:00:37 AM    from midori:	oh dear 
06/10/2008    10:00:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	There are definitely things that happen more than they need to. 
06/10/2008    10:00:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	If you put in print statements, you see that some methods get called like 4-6 times when you'd think once would suffice. 
06/10/2008    10:01:07 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes that is odd
06/10/2008    10:01:13 AM    from Jen Deegan:	but a lot of the time lag is new in oboedit2
06/10/2008    10:01:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Have you noticed that, too? 
06/10/2008    10:01:18 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes
06/10/2008    10:01:23 AM    from Jen Deegan:	especially on startup
06/10/2008    10:01:25 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, but remember OE2 has a different architecture from OE1 
06/10/2008    10:01:35 AM    from Jen Deegan:	several components get mentioned repeatedly.
06/10/2008    10:01:44 AM    from Jen Deegan:	do you know how different?
06/10/2008    10:02:03 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Um, 36% different. 
06/10/2008    10:02:10 AM    from Jen Deegan:	okay, that's what I thought.
06/10/2008    10:02:10 AM    from Nomi Harris:	(I'm just making that up.  I'm not sure how to assess it.) 
06/10/2008    10:02:11 AM    from midori:	I've also noticed some lags ... would have to do a bout of testing to get a thorough picture of which operations lag more than in OE1 
06/10/2008    10:02:44 AM    from Jen Deegan:	there are really a lot of lags for me
06/10/2008    10:02:59 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that is the biggest problem with oboedit2 but it seems awfully major.
06/10/2008    10:02:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	What's your memory setting for OE2? 
06/10/2008    10:03:13 AM    from Jen Deegan:	1152M
06/10/2008    10:03:18 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's set in installation.
06/10/2008    10:03:42 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That seems reasonable. 
06/10/2008    10:03:55 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I think if Nomi could see us edit in oboedit 1 then in 2 she would understand the huge difference
06/10/2008    10:04:03 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it's hard to put in words.
06/10/2008    10:04:16 AM    from Jen Deegan:	but oboedit1 was like this before the huge bug-fixing session.
06/10/2008    10:04:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I know that OE2 is slower, don't worry. 
06/10/2008    10:04:29 AM    from Jen Deegan:	thanks :-)
06/10/2008    10:04:33 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I'm just not sure how to fix that. 
06/10/2008    10:04:38 AM    from Jen Deegan:	do you need us to be ultra-specific about when?
06/10/2008    10:04:41 AM    from midori:	home is 1152M; work is 1500-ish 
06/10/2008    10:04:44 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I'm not sure how best to report this
06/10/2008    10:04:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Well, more specific is generally better. 
06/10/2008    10:05:03 AM    from Nomi Harris:	But I don't expect you to spend a lot of time benchmarking it. 
06/10/2008    10:05:09 AM    from Jen Deegan:	is there any way that we can keep log files or something?
06/10/2008    10:05:16 AM    from Jen Deegan:	to show what is happening when it slows down?
06/10/2008    10:05:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Well, OE does now save log files. 
06/10/2008    10:05:24 AM    from Jen Deegan:	we're quite tech-savvy.
06/10/2008    10:05:31 AM    from Jen Deegan:	could we send them?
06/10/2008    10:05:35 AM    from Amina:	well there is a log file being generated with each session 
06/10/2008    10:05:40 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's actually cumulative. 
06/10/2008    10:05:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It all goes into one log file until it gets too big 
06/10/2008    10:05:50 AM    from Amina:	yes its in your config dir 
06/10/2008    10:05:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	and then a new log file is started. 
06/10/2008    10:06:02 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Actually, in b39 the log files may not have been saved 
06/10/2008    10:06:09 AM    from Jen Deegan:	so if we did a little bit of benchmarking and sent you this file would it help?
06/10/2008    10:06:12 AM    from Nomi Harris:	because the logging config file wasn't included in the release. 
06/10/2008    10:06:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That will be fixed in b40. 
06/10/2008    10:06:19 AM    from Jen Deegan:	great
06/10/2008    10:06:21 AM    from Amina:	oh yes your right nomi 
06/10/2008    10:06:33 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Jen, it would only be helpful if you could note where in the log file you were when you saw the bad slowdown. 
06/10/2008    10:06:42 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I could try
06/10/2008    10:06:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	And that might be kind of a pain. 
06/10/2008    10:06:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok, but I can tell you that this is not the rate-limiting step for us. 
06/10/2008    10:06:58 AM    from Jen Deegan:	if I had the log file open while I edited I could notice which line was printed during the slowdown
06/10/2008    10:07:01 AM    from Amina:	the log file records time and method calls too 
06/10/2008    10:07:03 AM    from Jen Deegan:	oh okay
06/10/2008    10:07:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	what is the rate limiting step?
06/10/2008    10:07:21 AM    from Amina:	so if you even approximately remember what you were doing it will be helpful 
06/10/2008    10:07:30 AM    from Jen Deegan:	okay
06/10/2008    10:07:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Figuring out how to profile where OE is wasting time and how to fix it. 
06/10/2008    10:07:45 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes true
06/10/2008    10:07:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	We know it's wasting time and that some things are slow (e.g. reasoner, Graph Editor). 
06/10/2008    10:07:57 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So it's not like we're all, "Seems fast to me!  Nothing to fix!" 
06/10/2008    10:08:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	is that something we can do by running in the debugger in eclipse?
06/10/2008    10:08:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Not really, at least not that I've seen. 
06/10/2008    10:08:28 AM    from Jen Deegan:	you know if we run in the debugger then we know what method it is in while it slows down.
06/10/2008    10:08:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think I've described how we bought a profiling tool and it turned out to be complete rubbish. 
06/10/2008    10:08:40 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes
06/10/2008    10:08:43 AM    from Jen Deegan:	sad
06/10/2008    10:08:49 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So we still need to find a better solution. 
06/10/2008    10:08:54 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Maybe we can play around a bit with the debugger. 
06/10/2008    10:08:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	in eclipse, I mean. 
06/10/2008    10:09:00 AM    from Jen Deegan:	maybe I could do some of my slow maneuvers in the debugger and see if I see anything.
06/10/2008    10:09:03 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok. 
06/10/2008    10:09:21 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It seems like running OE under the debugger makes it run more slowly in general, do you notice that? 
06/10/2008    10:09:21 AM    from Jen Deegan:	see what it's doing when the rogue menus appear.
06/10/2008    10:09:41 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I tend to step through slowly anyway do I haven't really tried it but I can have a go.
06/10/2008    10:09:49 AM    from Jen Deegan:	it adds the eclipse overhead too.
06/10/2008    10:09:54 AM    from Jen Deegan:	but it can't hurt to try
06/10/2008    10:09:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Eclipse is a big memory hog. 
06/10/2008    10:10:03 AM    from Jen Deegan:	true
06/10/2008    10:10:17 AM    from Nomi Harris:	OE runs faster if you don't have Eclipse running at all. 
06/10/2008    10:10:21 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes
06/10/2008    10:10:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So, are we pretty much done for today? 
06/10/2008    10:10:54 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes I think so.
06/10/2008    10:10:56 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Jen can demo the filter thing? 
06/10/2008    10:11:03 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes
06/10/2008    10:11:17 AM    from Jen Deegan:	shall I do that then?
06/10/2008    10:11:19 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Anyone who's not interested in seeing that can go now. 
06/10/2008    10:11:25 AM    from Jen Deegan:	byeeee to them
06/10/2008    10:11:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Remember, we will not meet next week, and I'll be out all next week 
06/10/2008    10:11:32 AM    from Nomi Harris:	See you in two weeks. 
06/10/2008    10:12:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ready, Jen? 
06/10/2008    10:13:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yep
06/10/2008    10:13:47 AM    from Jen Deegan:	this is a bit complicated so I'll give you a commentary
06/10/2008    10:14:08 AM    from Jen Deegan:	so I need to search for two different terms and then make one a child of the other. 
06/10/2008    10:14:14 AM    from Jen Deegan:	here goes...
06/10/2008    10:15:03 AM    from Jen Deegan:	now the first term is in both windows and I want to seach for another term and put it in only one of the windows.
06/10/2008    10:15:07 AM    from Jen Deegan:	does that make sense?
06/10/2008    10:15:47 AM    from Jen Deegan:	are you there?
06/10/2008    10:18:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think it froze up 
06/10/2008    10:18:26 AM    from Jen Deegan:	ah
06/10/2008    10:18:29 AM    from Jen Deegan:	 great
06/10/2008    10:18:30 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Oh, I see, you wanted to talk to us here while demoing.
06/10/2008    10:18:41 AM    from Jen Deegan:	oh you're on macs
06/10/2008    10:18:49 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I have really not worked at all with global vs local selection 
06/10/2008    10:18:54 AM    from Nomi Harris:	or with two OTEs at the same time. 
06/10/2008    10:18:58 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes
06/10/2008    10:19:11 AM    from Jen Deegan:	so the problem is that you can't see the chat while I demo right?
06/10/2008    10:19:18 AM    from Amina:	yes 
06/10/2008    10:19:19 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Right. 
06/10/2008    10:19:21 AM    from Nomi Harris:	One or the other. 
06/10/2008    10:19:21 AM    from Jen Deegan:	ah
06/10/2008    10:19:25 AM    from Jen Deegan:	that's a mac thing
06/10/2008    10:19:28 AM    from Jen Deegan:	sorry I forgot.
06/10/2008    10:19:30 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Bummer. 
06/10/2008    10:19:30 AM    from Jen Deegan:	gosh
06/10/2008    10:19:37 AM    from Jen Deegan:	erm
06/10/2008    10:19:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Do you want to do voice Skype? 
06/10/2008    10:19:45 AM    from Jen Deegan:	yes that could be good.
06/10/2008    10:19:49 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Or we could just play around more with this ourselves 
06/10/2008    10:19:53 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I'll get my headset.
06/10/2008    10:19:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	since we haven't really done that yet. 
06/10/2008    10:19:57 AM    from Jen Deegan:	one sec
06/10/2008    10:20:02 AM    from Jen Deegan:	I could demo to get you started.
06/10/2008    10:20:02 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok 
06/10/2008    10:21:23 AM    from Amina:	my workstation died yesterday I'll have to boot into ubuntu for skype 
06/10/2008    10:21:31 AM    from Jen Deegan:	oh dear
06/10/2008    10:21:37 AM    from Jen Deegan:	sorry to hear that.
06/10/2008    10:21:39 AM    from Amina:	I'll sit with nomi  
06/10/2008    10:21:42 AM    from Jen Deegan:	great
06/10/2008    10:21:49 AM    from Jen Deegan:	if you skype me we can start