OE Webex 6May08

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05/06/2008
 09:33:39 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hi 
 09:33:56 AM    from Erika:		hello
 09:34:25 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I'm hoping some more people will be joining us! 
 09:34:33 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hi Tanya 
 09:34:37 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Hi Nomi
 09:34:48 AM    from Erika:		Hi Tanya
 09:34:51 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Hi Erika
 09:34:55 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I made it!
 09:34:57 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	:)
 09:34:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yay! 
 09:35:07 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Not many other people made it yet, as you can see! 
 09:35:19 AM    from Erika:		I think they are late
 09:35:26 AM    from Erika:		Hi Jen!
 09:35:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Amina is trying to connect but WebEx is not letting her.  She's on Linux. 
 09:35:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hi, all! 
 09:35:39 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Is she in CA?
 09:35:40 AM    from midori:		made it at last !
 09:35:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, she's right next to me! 
 09:35:53 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Cool.
 09:36:03 AM    from Ed:		Howdy everyone. 
 09:36:03 AM    from midori:		Is that Amina? 
 09:36:11 AM    from Erika:		Webex on Linux was not working for me
 09:36:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, Amina is having trouble with WebEx. 
 09:36:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So what did you do, Erika? 
 09:36:23 AM    from Erika:		I tried to run it on Linux many times
 09:36:32 AM    from Erika:		Find a Window machine
 09:36:38 AM    from Erika:		:-)
 09:36:43 AM    from jdeegan:		Hi, Sorry I'm late. Huge technology failure, but G4 mac saved the day. 
 09:36:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hmm, that's not encouraging, Erika! 
 09:36:53 AM    from Erika:		I know
 09:36:54 AM    from midori:		I was too, on Mac ... failed to join on the first try, and took ages the second time. 
 09:36:55 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Amina says she thinks she's almost gotten it working... 
 09:37:08 AM    from Erika:		fantastic...
 09:37:08 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Jen, did WebEx not work for you today? 
 09:37:26 AM    from Erika:		for me Webex was very slow today
 09:37:38 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	No problems for me.
 09:37:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Sometimes I have to try it a few times before it connects.  It just hangs, and I have to kill it and try again. 
 09:37:48 AM    from jdeegan:		no fine 
 09:38:18 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Should we wait another minute or two, or just start? 
 09:38:36 AM    from jdeegan:		main people are here 
 09:39:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	 Ok.  As I said in my email, the main topics for discussion are: - How time-critical is it to issue a real public release of OE2 (rather than the continuing succession of betas)? - How important is it to include the Graph Editor in the first public release?
 09:40:04 AM    from jdeegan:		Ideally I'd like to have the whole thing bug-free before release 
 09:40:04 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	It would be great to have OE2 go public so that we can finally release the intersection tags and edit them.
 09:40:11 AM    from Nomi Harris:	(The Graph Editor is currently the major source of bugs, including bugs that consume excess memory and CPU, so leaving it out of the default layout would enable us to do a less buggy release sooner.) 
 09:40:14 AM    from midori:		my answers ... 
 09:40:22 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I don't use the Graph Editor.
 09:40:25 AM    from midori:		Graph editor - not very. We could easily make it the star attraction of OE 2.1, 2.2, or whatever. 
 09:40:51 AM    from midori:		The graph editor certainly isn't worth holding up the release just  to include itp 
 09:40:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So, I had been under the impression that most of the OWEG agreed with Tanya and Midori 
 09:40:55 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	(intersection tags using 'regulates' relationships that is)
 09:40:56 AM    from Erika:		I do not use Graph editor due to memory problem
 09:41:04 AM    from Nomi Harris:	but then Jen said that the Graph Editor is actually really important. 
 09:41:14 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Jen?
 09:41:15 AM    from jdeegan:		no forgetthat 
 09:41:17 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	:)
 09:41:21 AM    from jdeegan:		I saw that Chris was using it 
 09:41:31 AM    from jdeegan:		but he says we don't need to do the thing he was doing 
 09:41:33 AM    from midori:		I also agree with Tanya that it would be nice to get OE2 released, because GO's deployment of cross-products is waiting for OE2. 
 09:41:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I know the Graph Editor is useful and cool, but it has been problematic. 
 09:41:37 AM    from jdeegan:		sorry usign terrible keyboard 
 09:41:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think if we turn off the Graph Editor, we could get a release out sooner. 
 09:41:56 AM    from jdeegan:		My question was, is there anything that we will really need the graph editor for? 
 09:41:56 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	but don't you usually type this way, Jen? :D
 09:42:05 AM    from jdeegan:		a bit faster 
 09:42:12 AM    from jdeegan:		with a delete key 
 09:42:28 AM    from Erika:		I think Graph Viewer is a big new feature in OE and I guess biologists for instance will like it a lot
 09:42:32 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The plan is to take it out of the default layout but leave it on the menu.  It will come up with a warning message (under development--still buggy--may make your OE slow down or crash) 
 09:42:42 AM    from Erika:		I have noticed that during a Content MEeting here in Italy
 09:43:08 AM    from jdeegan:		Midori says that it's just as buggy with animation on so I am not getting left behind with current non-animated version 
 09:43:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's buggy with animation on.  There was just one particular bug that showed up with animation off. 
 09:43:28 AM    from jdeegan:		so I am happy 
 09:43:54 AM    from jdeegan:		yes but in both cases it's basically unusable 
 09:43:55 AM    from midori:		That's not exactly what I said ... I said the memory-eating problem is there with animation on. 
 09:44:01 AM    from jdeegan:		oh ok 
 09:44:10 AM    from jdeegan:		but is it basically unusable in both forms? 
 09:44:24 AM    from midori:		I didn't say anything about any other bugs because I haven't tested it ... because of the memory leak (or whatever the problem is). 
 09:44:34 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I don't know about unusable, but it's pretty buggy. 
 09:44:41 AM    from midori:		All of OE2 is unusable if the Graph Editor is on. 
 09:44:53 AM    from jdeegan:		oh well that seems clear than 
 09:44:53 AM    from Ed:		Hmmm, I wonder if it uses up more memory with animation on.  Sounds rather odd (if that's the case, probably some kind of memory leak). 
 09:44:54 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I have not routinely found that to be the case, but it can get slow. 
 09:45:05 AM    from Nomi Harris:	No, I don't think the animation is affecting the memory. 
 09:45:06 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Axe the Graph Editor for now!
 09:45:14 AM    from jdeegan:		it sounds as if it is currently better with animation off 
 09:45:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It uses up a lot of memory (and cpu time). 
 09:45:22 AM    from jdeegan:		yes I agree tanya 
 09:45:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	No, I really doubt the animation is the issue, Jen. 
 09:45:32 AM    from jdeegan:		is there any need to have in the released version? 
 09:45:37 AM    from jdeegan:		the people who like it could use the beta 
 09:45:38 AM    from Nomi Harris:	There's a redraw problem with animation off, but I doubt that affects the memory. 
 09:45:43 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Remember we need to give warning that we're going to transition to OE2 as the official editors' version.
 09:45:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So you think it shouldn't even be on the menu? 
 09:45:54 AM    from jdeegan:		that's my thought 
 09:45:57 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Tanya, don't worry, this is not going to happen right away. 
 09:46:06 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	And that this will be a huge shift for those who edit GO and are not on the OEWG.
 09:46:10 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	(there are a few)
 09:46:21 AM    from jdeegan:		I hate to see the tool come out with broken stuff in it 
 09:46:23 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	So we might want to set up a Webex training thingie
 09:46:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	We'll work on how to communicate this when we get closer to the real release. 
 09:46:34 AM    from midori:		At this point I would like to rush in waving my arms and shouting "it's not ready to release!" 
 09:46:34 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That would be good, Tanya. 
 09:46:36 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	for newbies.
 09:46:44 AM    from jdeegan:		I agree wtih midri 
 09:46:45 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I know, I know.
 09:46:47 AM    from jdeegan:		midori 
 09:46:51 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	We don't want to release today.
 09:47:04 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I agree!! 
 09:47:05 AM    from midori:		It's not just that there are some bugs outstanding ... 
 09:47:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Don't worry, I wasn't planning to do the release until we agree that it's ready. 
 09:47:16 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I'm just being optimistic.
 09:47:18 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	:)
 09:47:24 AM    from jdeegan:		phew! 
 09:47:40 AM    from Nomi Harris:	midori, what else? 
 09:47:46 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Although foisting a somewhat buggy OE2 on the world would make for interesting discussion material.
 09:47:52 AM    from midori:		it's that OE2 just hasn't been tested nearly thoroughly enough. I wonder what other as-yet-undetected bugs may be lurking. 
 09:47:55 AM    from jdeegan:		would anybody object to having the graph editor right off the menu? 
 09:48:06 AM    from midori:		Jen -  not I
 09:48:10 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Not I.
 09:48:23 AM    from Erika:		NOt I.
 09:48:26 AM    from jdeegan:		Actually I think it was david that liked it and he's not here 
 09:48:32 AM    from jdeegan:		but he could use the beta 
 09:48:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok.  We can always decide about that later.  The decision now is not to spend developer time 
 09:48:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	debugging the Graph Editor before the public release. 
 09:49:13 AM    from jdeegan:		yes  
 09:49:21 AM    from midori:		When we were testing OE1 prior to its release, I went through the user guide and tried almost everything. 
 09:49:25 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Are there any other components that are really buggy and should maybe be left out of this release? 
 09:49:35 AM    from jdeegan:		no I don't think so 
 09:49:42 AM    from jdeegan:		I think Midori's idea is good 
 09:49:48 AM    from Nomi Harris:	midori, we will definitely need to do a round of testing before the public release, but right now there are still known bugs that we're working on. 
 09:50:02 AM    from jdeegan:		true that could be a ater stage 
 09:50:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	For example,  I have been working on the global filtering problem (removing a global filter does not immediately take effect, but requires restart). 
 09:50:29 AM    from midori:		I haven't done anything like that with OE2, but I think I should. I also think I should NOT be the only one doing so; we need testing on different platforms and just more than one pair of eyes. 
 09:50:46 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I have not been able to recreate this problem in the OTE.  I see it in the Graph Editor. 
 09:50:56 AM    from jdeegan:		I think everybody had tis bug except nomi 
 09:51:05 AM    from jdeegan:		when regulates came along 
 09:51:07 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I see the other global filter issue that has been reported by Erika among others, where the value field in the global filter goes away. 
 09:51:12 AM    from midori:		We also need to get Chris to teach us more about using the new cross-product features. Can't test 'em if we don't know how they're supposed to work. 
 09:51:21 AM    from jdeegan:		true 
 09:51:28 AM    from Erika:		Yes, I have that problem with filters
 09:51:35 AM    from Erika:		on Linux
 09:51:42 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Chris is super-busy but we can try to persuade him to give a WebEx cross-product demo sometime soon. 
 09:51:56 AM    from jdeegan:		or karen? 
 09:51:58 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I've played around with the xps some
 09:51:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Anyway, with the global filter thing, Amina and I are looking at this.  It seems like a critical one to fix. 
 09:52:02 AM    from jdeegan:		I think she understands it 
 09:52:14 AM    from Erika:		very good!
 09:52:22 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	while getting ready for the release of regulates.
 09:52:25 AM    from jdeegan:		also the complete absence of the filter /render mechanism 
 09:52:46 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I don't really know what that's all about. 
 09:52:56 AM    from jdeegan:		We need to show you on 1.101 
 09:53:05 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Do you want to show me now? 
 09:53:11 AM    from midori:		I've also noticed OE2 using a lot of CPU on my home machine lately. Haven't put in a bug report yet because I've really only just convinced myself that I was really seeing it. 
 09:53:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Do you have the Graph Editor in your layout, midori? 
 09:53:40 AM    from midori:		no 
 09:53:58 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hmm.  Do you have the reasoner on? 
 09:54:13 AM    from midori:		lemme check ... 
 09:54:22 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The reasoner definitely slows things down. 
 09:54:31 AM    from midori:		reasoner off 
 09:54:32 AM    from Erika:		Sometimes I have the same problem of Midor
 09:54:46 AM    from Erika:		but I have just 1G RAM
 09:55:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yeah, OE2 uses a lot of memory, so if you don't have much RAM it may be thrashing (and thus slow). 
 09:55:18 AM    from midori:		The high CPU usage doesn't kick in right away; it comes after OE2 has been running for a little while (but not all day, maybe an hour or so?) 
 09:55:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	We are going to try to figure out if there are memory leaks. 
 09:55:40 AM    from Ed:		It seems to get slower the longer you use it?  Or is it slow from the get go? 
 09:55:42 AM    from jdeegan:		I am gettign the 1.101 demo ready 
 09:55:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Unfortunately, the tool that we bought for this purpose turned out to be useless, and we are currently trying to get a refund for it. 
 09:55:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	And we haven't found another good candidate for that task. 
 09:56:00 AM    from midori:		machine has 1.5GB; OE2 using 1152M 
 09:56:00 AM    from Ed:		Nevermind, there's the answer =P 
 09:56:21 AM    from midori:		Ed - slower, and more frequent CPU hogging, as I go. 
 09:56:42 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I tend to quit and restart frequently (because I'm debugging), so maybe that's why I haven't really seen this. 
 09:56:50 AM    from midori:		aha! 
 09:56:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Also, although I do test on GO, I often test on smaller ontologies. 
 09:56:53 AM    from Ed:		Yeah, sounds like a "memory leak" (although I guess there really aren't true memory leaks in Java...) 
 09:57:26 AM    from midori:		Lately I've been trying to "test" by doing real-life GO edits in OE2 ... 
 09:57:36 AM    from Nomi Harris:	There can be memory leaks if you have dangling references to no-longer-needed variables. 
 09:57:57 AM    from midori:		we can keep it up all day, if OE can ... b ut it seems OE2 can't.
 09:58:12 AM    from midori:		We've all learned to save early, save often :P 
 09:58:34 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Does it frequently crash on you?  Or just get slower and slower? 
 09:58:37 AM    from jdeegan:		I have the demo ready now 
 09:58:42 AM    from Ed:		Right, but they're not the "usual" memory leaks, per se.  Definitely harder to debug than traditional C memory leaks, I think. 
 09:58:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Right. 
 09:59:02 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok, let's see the demo! 
 09:59:12 AM    from jdeegan:		can you make me presenter? 
 09:59:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	done 
 09:59:35 AM    from midori:		It doesn'ttend to crash per se ... it's more that it goes unresponsive. 
 10:00:30 AM    from jdeegan:		did you see that? 
 10:00:43 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, but I'm not sure what the rendering part was. 
 10:00:43 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I saw but I did not comprehend.
 10:00:50 AM    from jdeegan:		I dragged the filter button and it applied the search criteria as a filter to the OTE 
 10:00:58 AM    from jdeegan:		then the rainbow button restored it 
 10:01:02 AM    from jdeegan:		again? 
 10:01:04 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I didn't see the rainbow button. 
 10:01:09 AM    from jdeegan:		on emore time. 
 10:01:11 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok 
 10:01:42 AM    from Erika:		The rainbow button is at the bottom of the OTE
 10:01:59 AM    from midori:		the button looks less rainbow-y via webex than on my OE ... 
 10:02:09 AM    from jdeegan:		did that make sense second time? 
 10:02:18 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So how is dragging the filter button different from clicking it? 
 10:02:20 AM    from jdeegan:		All the buttons at the bottm of the ote are missing in oboedit2 
 10:02:21 AM    from Erika:		I saw it and made sense
 10:02:31 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Weren't you just applying the global filter and then removing it? 
 10:02:35 AM    from jdeegan:		it just means that you can choose which of two otes to apply it to. 
 10:02:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ohhh.  I see. 
 10:02:49 AM    from jdeegan:		not global because it is only to one window 
 10:02:52 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I never have more than one OTE up. 
 10:03:05 AM    from jdeegan:		I always have two  
 10:03:10 AM    from Erika:		Nomi, we ofter use more than one
 10:03:13 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Got it.  Ok, thanks for the demo. 
 10:03:15 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I usually have two or three.
 10:03:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, I know some people use more than one--I guess I need to test more with >1. 
 10:03:26 AM    from jdeegan:		it means if you want to add a relationship then yoy have one term in one window and another in the other window then you don't need to scroll 
 10:03:44 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	v. convenient
 10:04:00 AM    from midori:		it's also "not a global filter" in the sense that it's not specified in the global filter plugin (OE1 equivalent of OE2's global filter component) 
 10:04:00 AM    from jdeegan:		might be good if we show you how we edit for a few minutes sometime? 
 10:04:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Yes, I have never actually seen anyone edit in OE1 or 2! 
 10:04:17 AM    from jdeegan:		there are also render controls  
 10:04:23 AM    from jdeegan:		:-) 
 10:04:39 AM    from jdeegan:		how did you enable the render controls midori? 
 10:04:41 AM    from midori:		even if you only have one OTE panel open, it's Very Handy Indeed to be able to filter or render directly from the search panel 
 10:04:49 AM    from jdeegan:		yes I think so too 
 10:04:51 AM    from midori:		advanced options 
 10:05:08 AM    from jdeegan:		shall I show it? 
 10:05:09 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So is this request (for filter that can be dragged onto an OTE) already logged as a feature request, or does it need to be added to the tracker? 
 10:05:13 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Sure! 
 10:05:27 AM    from jdeegan:		midori wrote to the list 
 10:05:37 AM    from midori:		it's not in the tracker yet because I didn't know whether to put it in bugs or feature requests 
 10:05:47 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Feature requests,  I think. 
 10:05:47 AM    from jdeegan:		demo coming up 
 10:06:10 AM    from midori:		... considered the bug possibility because the feature is well established in OE1 
 10:07:00 AM    from jdeegan:		makes the terms of interest blue. :-) 
 10:07:04 AM    from jdeegan:		v. handy 
 10:07:07 AM    from jdeegan:		also quick to remove 
 10:07:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	And OE2 doesn't have that kind of term render capability yet? 
 10:07:36 AM    from jdeegan:		only the global version 
 10:07:40 AM    from jdeegan:		not on the search panel 
 10:07:46 AM    from midori:		exactly 
 10:07:56 AM    from jdeegan:		and not the removal button 
 10:08:05 AM    from Nomi Harris:	midori, I can see the argument for considering something a bug in OE2 if it existed in OE1; however, if it's really not implemented in OE2, it's probably more useful for us to think of it as a feature request. 
 10:08:18 AM    from Nomi Harris:	To me, a bug is something that is implemented but doesn't work right. 
 10:08:24 AM    from jdeegan:		but one that's required for release? 
 10:08:42 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Although there are not-implemented cases that I would consider bugs, for example, the one where words you added to your dictionary didn't get saved because saving had not been implemented. 
 10:08:57 AM    from Nomi Harris:	In that case, you could reasonably expect that it would save your changes. 
 10:09:02 AM    from midori:		fair 'nuff ... but sometimes I can't tell whether complete absence is "feature not added' or "REALLY bad bug" 
 10:09:13 AM    from jdeegan:		me neither 
 10:09:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Sure, right, I can't always tell, either. 
 10:09:25 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It often requires some testing and exploration to decide. 
 10:09:33 AM    from jdeegan:		as long as it goes in before release I don't think we mind 
 10:09:41 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So just use your best judgment, and don't be miffed if I end up moving some of the bug reports to the feature category. 
 10:09:48 AM    from midori:		fortunately, sourceforge lets you move items between trackers ;) 
 10:09:48 AM    from jdeegan:		ok :-) 
 10:09:59 AM    from jdeegan:		cool! 
 10:10:06 AM    from midori:		anyway, this rendering thing is going in as a feature request now. 
 10:10:09 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Hey, maybe one of you could demo the global filtering bug in OE2. 
 10:10:18 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Since I'm having a hard time reproducing it. 
 10:10:20 AM    from jdeegan:		I could try 
 10:10:32 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That would be good. 
 10:10:39 AM    from jdeegan:		I need to chec out the file I think 
 10:10:44 AM    from jdeegan:		I am on an old computer 
 10:10:46 AM    from Nomi Harris:	What file? 
 10:10:46 AM    from jdeegan:		just a sec 
 10:10:53 AM    from jdeegan:		the onotlogy file with regualtes 
 10:11:01 AM    from jdeegan:		maybe I don't need it? 
 10:11:03 AM    from Nomi Harris:	You could demo with something other than regulates 
 10:11:05 AM    from Nomi Harris:	couldn't you? 
 10:11:10 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	This is the one where you need to reset the filter and then restart to see the regulates terms right?
 10:11:11 AM    from midori:		I've got a small test file available that I could use ... 
 10:11:12 AM    from jdeegan:		no sorry I'm talkign rubbish 
 10:11:16 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Tanya, right. 
 10:11:16 AM    from jdeegan:		I don't even have oboedit 2 
 10:11:23 AM    from jdeegan:		does anyone else have it? 
 10:11:30 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I do
 10:11:33 AM    from jdeegan:		great 
 10:11:35 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	but I think I reset the filters
 10:11:47 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	so that I can see the regulates terms
 10:11:48 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	:)
 10:11:53 AM    from Nomi Harris:	But can you add a new filter and remove it and show that it doesn't remove the filtering like it should? 
 10:12:08 AM    from jdeegan:		should be okay 
 10:12:11 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	does it have to be the latest OE@
 10:12:14 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	OE2
 10:12:15 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	?
 10:12:16 AM    from jdeegan:		just turn some terms blue 
 10:12:21 AM    from jdeegan:		nope 
 10:12:22 AM    from Nomi Harris:	How old is the one you have? 
 10:12:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I don't think this is a new bug, so it probalby doesn't matter if you have an older beta 
 10:12:41 AM    from Nomi Harris:	as long as it's >27 or so 
 10:12:51 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	hunting now....
 10:13:44 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	i have 36
 10:13:49 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Good 
 10:14:18 AM    from jdeegan:		fire away then 
 10:14:30 AM    from Nomi Harris:	You can add and then remove the transitive filter 
 10:14:39 AM    from Nomi Harris:	That should hide and then show the regulates relations, right? 
 10:14:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	But according to the bug report, regulates will not come back until you quit and restart? 
 10:14:55 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	want to make me presenter?
 10:14:59 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Oops, yes. 
 10:16:08 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	where's the is_transitive?
 10:16:09 AM    from midori:		choose 'type' in the first pulldown 
 10:16:26 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	thanks
 10:16:42 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	regulates guys are gone now
 10:16:53 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	whoa
 10:16:56 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	they're back!
 10:17:03 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	not what I was expecting
 10:17:13 AM    from midori:		huh. that's exactly what didn't work for me. 
 10:17:34 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I'm on a Windows machine, running XP.
 10:17:58 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	gone again
 10:18:09 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	and back
 10:18:11 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	go figure
 10:18:27 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Looked like it worked, didn't it? 
 10:18:30 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	indeed
 10:18:33 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	twice!
 10:18:34 AM    from jdeegan:		I guess you don't have the bug? 
 10:18:40 AM    from midori:		want me to try? 
 10:18:41 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	I don't have the bug.
 10:18:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	But had you seen the bug before, Tanya? 
 10:18:48 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Yes!
 10:18:59 AM    from jdeegan:		murphy's law 
 10:19:00 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Is it possible that you forgot to click the "Save" button?  I've made that mistake. 
 10:19:09 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	But I can't remember what version of OE2 it was in.
 10:19:15 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	It's possible.
 10:19:24 AM    from jdeegan:		why would restart help that though? 
 10:19:31 AM    from Nomi Harris:	It's possible that changes that I made in recent releases fixed the bug 
 10:19:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	and that's why I haven't seen it. 
 10:19:41 AM    from jdeegan:		great! 
 10:19:42 AM    from midori:		maybe I could've forgotten once or twice ... but I tried it quite a few times before I bug-reported 
 10:19:50 AM    from Nomi Harris:	midori, can you try it now? 
 10:19:57 AM    from jdeegan:		everybiody seemed to have this bug too 
 10:20:03 AM    from midori:		just loading GO ... 
 10:20:06 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I know, a lot of people reported it. 
 10:20:15 AM    from midori:		(and can I be presenter?) 
 10:20:16 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Maybe I will try some earlier betas and see if they have the bug. 
 10:20:18 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	Mass hysteria.
 10:20:37 AM    from jdeegan:		it was quite hysterical 
 10:23:11 AM    from Erika:		I will try this on Linux because I cannot remeber now if I had the bug
 10:24:39 AM    from midori:		seems to be fixed for me now 
 10:25:02 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I didn't see what happened in the last test when you removed the turquoise renderer 
 10:25:07 AM    from jdeegan:		that's  good then
 10:25:14 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So it's fixed?  That's good news! 
 10:25:27 AM    from jdeegan:		yes 
 10:25:35 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I still think one of us should try to reproduce the bug on an earlier version so we can be sure that it existed and was then fixed. 
 10:25:37 AM    from midori:		oops, guess I stopped sharing too soon ... but the terms changed back to plain ol' black 
 10:25:50 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Thanks for the demos.  I feel vindicated. :-) 
 10:25:52 AM    from jdeegan:		if i install on this computer that might show it 
 10:25:59 AM    from jdeegan:		this computer has never had oboedit2 
 10:26:26 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I don't see why that would make a difference. 
 10:26:33 AM    from jdeegan:		okay, I won't bother 
 10:26:36 AM    from Erika:		I should go now sorry!
 10:26:37 AM    from jdeegan:		it seems ficed to me 
 10:26:40 AM    from jdeegan:		fixed 
 10:26:44 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So, in the next release the infamous .oboeditbeta directory will be in a more OS-appropriate and visible location. 
 10:26:46 AM    from jdeegan:		bye erika 
 10:26:49 AM    from Erika:		Bye
 10:26:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Bye, Erika, thanks for coming. 
 10:26:55 AM    from Erika:		and thanks for the demos
 10:26:56 AM    from jdeegan:		great 
 10:27:08 AM    from Nomi Harris:	When you launch OE, it will check if you have files in .oboeditbeta and offer to copy them to the new location. 
 10:27:20 AM    from jdeegan:		excellent! 
 10:27:20 AM    from midori:		I've dredged up the fact that it was beta28 for which I reported the global filter bug. 
 10:27:29 AM    from Nomi Harris:	However, it will leave the old ones to get stale in .oboeditbeta, and it will be up to you to remember that they are no longer the live ones. 
 10:27:36 AM    from Nomi Harris:	midori, thanks, I will try b28. 
 10:27:37 AM    from jdeegan:		cool 
 10:27:45 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So that sounds ok? 
 10:27:50 AM    from jdeegan:		sounds great 
 10:27:55 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Good. 
 10:28:15 AM    from Nomi Harris:	The downside of this new config directory system is that there won't be a convenient way to refer to the config directory 
 10:28:17 AM    from midori:		I thought it was fixed in betas 31 and 32 on the Mac, but Jen reopened the bug report because b32 still had the problem on windows. 
 10:28:24 AM    from Nomi Harris:	because it will be in a different location on different operating systems. 
 10:28:50 AM    from Nomi Harris:	So I won't be able to say "remove your .oboeditbeta", I'll have to say "remove your config directory (which you can find by opening the Configuration Manager)" 
 10:29:30 AM    from midori:		withing the wg, we could agree to use "remove your .oboeditbeta" as shorthand for "remove your config directory yada yada" 
 10:29:43 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Ok 
 10:29:51 AM    from midori:		... tho we'd still have to use the longer version for non-wg-ers 
 10:30:04 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Right. 
 10:30:12 AM    from Tanya Berardini:	sorry, need to run to a seminar now
 10:30:23 AM    from Nomi Harris:	I think we're done. 
 10:30:23 AM    from jdeegan:		bye Tanya 
 10:30:24 AM    from midori:		bye, Tanya 
 10:30:29 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Bye, all.  Thanks for the demos and feedback. 
 10:30:30 AM    from jdeegan:		yes we seem done 
 10:30:36 AM    from Nomi Harris:	Amina says bye. 
 10:30:38 AM    from Ed:		Alrighty then. 
 10:30:41 AM    from jdeegan:		Bye Amina 
 10:30:42 AM    from Ed:		Bye everyone. 
 10:30:47 AM    from jdeegan:		Bye :-) 
 10:30:51 AM    from Nomi Harris:	She was looking over my shoulder because she couldn't get WebEx working on Ubuntu Linux 
 10:30:54 AM    from midori:		bye everyone! 
 10:31:05 AM    from jdeegan:		Bye